Čujić i Matković: ubojice?!

[Karlo Seitz]

Kolke ovlasti oni imaju u Hr?

[zdravko]

Danas je na

http://www.onsight.com.au/news-blog/index.php

objavljen detaljan izvještaj s najnovijim podacima. Iz smjera je u subotu izvađeno preostalih 45 spitova i 'Zadnja šansa za happy end' više ne postoji. Postoji i zastrašujuća snimka ručnog čupanja spitova iz stijene kao i guranja 9 mm svrdla u navodno 8 mm rupu.

Na forumu Čujičevog matičnog društva PDS "Velebit" razvila se živahna rasprava. Čujić ne misli da je on išta krivo učinio pa sad svi čitatelji mogu iz prve ruke pročitati obje strane priče i prosuditi sami:

http://www.pdsvelebit.hr/AO/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3208&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=4db122b39fb97c50646dda8a79bba7ee

[Karlo Seitz]

Nakon citanja oba linka nisam mogao da ne primjetim neke... nepravilnosti u najmanju ruku...
Trebam pomoc oko shvacanja...

1.

Simon Carter's blog:

Soon after their climb Cujic sent me a topo and description of the route. The description is extremely brief and contains absolutely no warning about the dangerously bad bolts. As guidebook publisher it’s not my job to climb every route whenever I receive a description.

Rasprava na velebitu:

Samo deset dana po povratku poslao sam mail Simonu Carteru sa skicom i opisom smjera te opisom karaktera te informacijom o materijalu kojeg smo koristili uz napomenu da stojim na raspolaganju za dodatna pojašnjenja.
(...)
Carter je to dobio ali nije objavio . Pred par dana nakon cijele halabuke ja sam mu poslao mail sa copypastiranim mojim tadašnjim mailom te dodatnim pojašnjenjem . I dobio njegovu ispriku !

2.

Simon Carter's blog:

Earlier in the trip the climbers visited Tasmania where they had dinner with some Tasmanian climbers and one climber visiting from the Blue Mountains, Andy Richardson. Cujic showed Andy the bolts he had with him and the Blue Mountains guidebook indicating where they intended to climb. Andy says he told Cujic not to use those bolts. Cujic has denied to me that he was clearly told.

Rasprava na velebitu:

( Btw spitove smo prije uspona pokazali-jer smo bili gosti -čak i predsjedniku njihove federacije i nekolicini penjača - nitko nije rekao da neće valjati )

...

Svatko prica svoju pricu...

Ima ko kakvu pametnu ideju?
(Osim poligrafa ta je moja )

[chak(nuti) noris]

Bas mi je interesantno da se autori smjera u potpunosti ograduju od odgovornosti za nesrecu te da postoje penjaci koji ih opravdavaju - ?!
Po njima - krivi su si penjaci jer nisu ovo, jer nisu ono...

Pa cekaj - ono sitno sto znam o penjanju je da je spit sigurna tocka (ako se fakat  nekaj jako nije zasralo - kao u ovom slucaju), a vlastito osiguranje moze ili ne mora drzati. Znaci, ako je spit u stijeni racunas da ga je postavljao strucnjak, da je znao sta radi i da bi se u svim normalnim okolnostima trebao racunati kao ziher.
Uvijek moze ispasti jedan, odsarafiti se ili blabla... ali ne racunas da su 2.5 od 3 spita Simonin singl.

Ali ako ispada 80% postavljenih spitova, RUKOM izvlacis spitove, 9mm svrdlo u 8mm rupu, spit za vapnenac u rupu pjescenjaka, prasina u rupama - po tome je najlogicnije zakljuciti da su - KRIVI PENJACI?!!! 

Da, mozda su penjaci mogli jos ovo ili ono, ali jednostavno je nemoguce da su samo i iskljucivo oni bili krivi.

Bas me zanima koga bi ti isti idolopoklonici optuzivali da se netko ozlijedi u Grahorovoj jer je Zdravko umjesto spitova stavio karike od plastelina?
Je pa slusajte, nije bilo u ducanu, a Zdravku se zurilo da zavrsi svoj projekt. Misiju. I da dobije nagradu. Da ga malo uslikaju... Multimedijalna projekcija preko leseva. Doslovno.

Post Scriptum - Kakvu vrstu 'smjera' su onda napravili Tom Cruise & Brian De Palma? I tko bi 'to' poslije njih trebao /mogao penjati?
Ako su penjaci zapravo trebali koristiti svoja osiguranja i bla bla, i ne dirati spitove jer su trebali znati da su nesigurni (wtf?!) - cemu onda ti spitovi?
I koja im je bila svrha? Mozda piercing stijene?
Lijepi su za gledanje jer takve nitko tamo ne koristi? (s razlogom!!!).
Sluze kao putokaz?
Ili vjetrokaz?
S obzirom da se u stijeni slobodno okrecu kako vjetar zapuse...
 

[codar]

P.S.- cudi me da nitko sa 8a.nu nije reagirao na ovo...ipak je to site koji ljudi najvise posjecuju kada se hoce informirati o novim updateima za neko penjaliste ili nesto vezano uz penjanje. Dali je netko stavio tamo vijest?

[codar]

evo kako se lako vade spitovi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQt4AbQmJjE

[Sharmantni Vlado]

P.S.- cudi me da nitko sa 8a.nu nije reagirao na ovo...ipak je to site koji ljudi najvise posjecuju kada se hoce informirati o novim updateima za neko penjaliste ili nesto vezano uz penjanje. Dali je netko stavio tamo vijest?

na 8a.nu ti je vjest o tome

[codar]

evo sad vidio...i vidio komentare i svi su slozni u jednome a to je da najvecu odgovornost snosi postavljac smjera...jebiga sad tko je tu kriv???

[Herak]

PWND

zdravko > čuja

 

No dobro... Sad za ozbiljno nevjerojatno mi je zapravo na koje načine čujić argumentira to da nije kriv... Ok naravno to je poslijedica toga što nema argumenata...

Najveći biser je kad poziva onog nekakvog lika na duel ili dance-off Ko da penje 8b, 8c

[zdravko]

Našao sam stručnu procjenu vrijednosti konkretnog smjera. Treba li pretpostaviti da je na ostalim etapama projekta "Velike stijene svijeta" bilo bolje?

>Now that the bolts have been pulled, will the route be rebolted to appropriate
>standard?

No. Sorry. Absolutely not. That route is one of the most worthless piles of rubbish I have ever seen in my life. I imagine (or hope) that it could have only ever been a visiting climber, who cared nothing for the quality of they did, would ever seriously consider putting a "route" up there.

Jedan sažeti prikaz cijele afere sam našao u članku na
http://climbing.about.com/b/2009/02/03/bolt-pulls-australian-climber-dies.htm

[zdravko]

Čujić se oglasio na
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=340148
Ton se pomalo razlikuje od onoga "pometimo pod tepih" za domaću "Velebit" publiku.

by - Boris Cujic on - 19:53 Sat - 93-141-97-104.adsl.net.t-com.hr
My name is Boris and I am one of two «bastards» and «cold killers» from Croatia.
We have climbed a route in Blue Mountains where a climbers was died.
Mr. Simon Carter was made a big report abaout that incident and many people formed their opinion .
By my opinion he was not try to look the situation from point of the first ascensionist . I want to explain a little bit this from our point of view ( If I can because of not perfect english).
Somebody say a bad motivation to climb a route in that part of the wall. Which motivation is right one ? Someone want to win a competition , someone to climb seven summits. We like to climb new routes and our idea was to climb them on all continents . For our soul on the first place.
If we have chosen bad wall what abaout other routes in the same wall- and their protection too? What abaout all ugly routes on the world? Maybe our tollerance for bad rock , protection etc is slightly higher than this of true «sport» climbers.
We have not idea to establish a «sport» route. We try to climb a route using possible protection directed by the rock. There was not so much place for natural protection so we bolt.
We start ground up, but due a bad weather and with wish to finish a route before flight back we finished from top. But we climbed it in lead from the ground . By ground climbing it is not common cleaning the holes because you can not. During our climb we have seen that rock is softer than we expected. We can drill faster. But this is sometimes happen in soft tufa limestone too. Some bolts on belay start to rotate so we put one more . In the pitch where we drill a bad bright hole we drill another one and put a bolt. We definitly drill with 8mm drill
( and not with 9mm as mr. Carter suggest)
We definitley can screw the bolts. But we have NOT test them tryng to pull them horizontaly out. We hang from some of them before final climbs. We have rappel on them to the base. We do not dye as you see. So we not feel at that moment that we have created anything dangerous. Most of the route was bolted by my partner Ivica because he was in better shape at that time ( I was broke my foot that year). I belive him 100%.
Regarding speculation that hard section is impossible: Ivica got this pitch , climb a passage , say it is arraound 6b+ ( it was filmed by third person from the top ) . I was folloving but in the meantime it start to rain so I must grab one express to pass.
Regarding a «clear» warnings frome some of local climbers: We was on dinner by president of Australian sport climbing federation. We was joined by two local climbers. We have shoved them bolts and where we want to climb. One of them is claiming now that he was warn us clearly. It is not honest ( I can remember even what they have wear, color of shirts , socks – so me and my partner will remember IF somebody was tell us something- and take notice abaout that – we was hosted by president of their federation – I am 47 , Ivica is 46 - we are not rebbel youngsters).
This is maybe irrelevant for whole situation , and you not need to belive me but It was a lot of words abaout us as iggnorants of the locals etc.
After comming back to Croatia I have sent topo to mr. Carter and mentioned bad rock and 8mm Raumer bolts . It was not strange to him . Not any doubts as a local expert. Why I was not mentioned anything else I was explain before . My e mail to mr. Carter:
Hi Simon!
There is information abaout new route which we have climbed at Pierces pass. It start between Bunny Bucket and Big Nose by big boulders in a shallow diedre. First bolt is 15m above ground. Route is protected by the bolts ( 8mm Raumer double expansion ). Lower part is not so nice but upper part is fine. For repeat you need 12 draws some slings and cams from smaller to nr.3 for lower part. We have climbed it on 30.11 but rappeled in heavy rain and we have finished route on 03.12 again with rain . Our names : Boris Cujic and Ivica Matkovic . We are from Croatia.
Name of the route : Last chance for Happy end. We climbed it as part of our project to climb new routes on all continents ,and this one was the last one from this project.
Best regards
Boris

There is probably some mistakes from us but as was suggested we are not blody bastards as someone have mention, iggnorants and definitely not cold killers as was written on one web page in Croatia.
English climbers can remember two Croatians coming to BMC meet 2-3 years ago. That was we: Ivica and Boris.
And at the end , I will not speak a lot abaout possible mistakes of Australian climbers which they definitely did comming to unknown route and taking some risk by this . There is a lot of sharp rock in this wall , what you can see a lot before fatal pitch. From that reason we have climbed with double ropes . They have not . I am interested in sort of their rope ( manufacturer ?).

I am definitely very sorry abaout this fatal accident . I am not slep well, and I am asking my self if WE are realy kill this young guy?

Best regards to everywone
Boris Cujic
Croatia
PS
A couple of years ago in Croatia we have situation with Austrian climbers . They bolt a whole climbing place with home made bolts, later discovered from very bad material. They was glue in sort of the bolts. They put them without glueing in some of the routes. One climber was injured because you can very easy take them out . Me, as author of climbing guide try to contact them . One of them send me to the particular place and later the president of our federation too . But we do not put them on lynch…

[PickNick]

We climbed it as part of our project to climb new routes on all continents ,and this one was the last one from this project.

[/quote]
nešto me u svemu ovom podsjetilo na jednu rečenicu iz pds velebitaške knjige speleologija:
Speleolozi ne smiju potcjenjivati i omalovažavati tuđi rad, a pogotovo speleološki; ne smiju se nedolično ponašati; ne smiju biti sebični i nepovjerljivi i ne smiju imati bolesnih ambicija u smislu rekorderstva i sl.
Ne bi škodilo da DRUŠTVO podijeljeno na odsjeke podijeli i ovako nešto te primjenjuje i u alpinizmu?

[zdravko]

Priča je stigla i do Raumera pa je sad nadopunjen opis namjene ovog spita.

http://www.raumerclimbing.com/eng/prodotti_dettaglio.asp?prod=hang_fix_inox_m8l&qi=0-2-23

[zdravko]

Cijela afera pomalo ide prema kraju, skoro svi aspekti događaja su razjašnjeni, a prije nego prionem na pisanje završnog komentara o čimbenicima koji su doveli do ove tragedije moram se osvrnuti na već 2 tjedna star komentar na forumu "velebitaša i ostalih dobrih ljudi"(!!!) koji je potpisao barba, dugogodišnji alpinist i penjač čije sam mišljenje nekada jako cijenio.

Njemu koji je sigurno dobro upoznat sa svim aspektima priče "kako je Čujić pokušao uništiti stijenu u Grahorovoj" nije jasno koja je poveznica i što je sporno u snimci razgovora. Ja u snimci vidim nekoliko spornih momenata. Prvo, postoje neki (Darko Berljak, tajnih HPS) kojima je problem ako penjači organiziraju natjecanja i koji će pribječi ucjeni da ta natjecanja sprijeće. Drugo, postoje neki kao Čujić koji za sebe kažu da vole penjanje, ali su spremni ucjenjivati penjače i uništiti jedinu funkcionalnu stijenu u Zagrebu ako je to uvjet za povečanje njihovog profita. Nadalje, postoji savez koji bi trebao funkcionirati na principima demokratskog odlučivanja i odluke o nabavi roba koje se mjere stotinama tisuća kuna donositi na temelju javnog natječaja, a ovdje vidimo da je jedini kriterij za dobijanje posla poslušnost i bespogovorno obavljanje zadataka kao što je ušutkavanje nepodobnih.
Akteri obje priče su isti, princip stavljanja penjanja u drugi plan iza osobnih probitaka je isti, a barbi ništa nije sporno i ne vidi vezu.
To je tako kad se dugi niz godina nalaziš na Čujićevoj platnoj listi kao barba koji vodi njegov dućan, optika se malo raštela.

Ostatak njegovog lupetanja gdje izbijanje starog spita iz prapočetaka sportskog penjanja sa 3 udarca kladivom (tko ne zna, 50% smjerova na Pokojcu su Čujićevo djelo) stavlja u isti koš s 45 novih novcatih spitova koji se čupaju rukom, uvjerava me da se i barba stavio na dug spisak moralnih invalida s kojima ću se ostatak života truditi izbjegavati svaki kontakt.

[codar]